Dr. Caroline Leaf
Podcast 437: How Minimalism Can Improve Your Mental Health & Mind
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SHOW DESCRIPTION: In this podcast I talk to bestselling author and founder of Becoming Minimalist Joshua Becker about his new book Things That Matter, overcoming distractions to pursue a more meaningful life, how to focus on what really matters in your life, practical ways to let go of distractions, the mental health benefits of minimalism, and so much more!
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EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS:
3:00 Why we should pursue things that really matter to us
8:00 The top life regrets many people have
9:30 How to resist distractions & focus on what matters
13:10 Technology is often a symptom of the other kinds of distractions
14:00 The danger of letting less important things crowd out what really matters
15:42 The mental health benefits of minimalism
21:40 Fear can be a distraction
22:20 How our past mistakes can hold us back
27:00 Happiness as a distraction
35:00 What happens when the desire for attention becomes a distraction
ADDITIONAL RESOURCES:
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*DISCLAIMER: This podcast and blog are for educational purposes only and are not intended as medical advice. We always encourage each person to make the decision that seems best for their situation with the guidance of a medical professional.
welcome to my podcast Joshua I'm really going to enjoy talking to you about this incredibly important topic you've written a book things that matter overcoming distraction to pursue a more meaningful life and we definitely are in the age of distraction not that distractions are anything new but I just think we've forgotten how to manage them so I find your book very very potent very relevant for our current age and I am just before after you've introduced yourself there's a couple of things I want to just read to the to the audience that I think are amazing so welcome tell my audience a little bit more about you they've heard your intro and bio a little bit but it's always nice to hear from the person themselves yeah so good to be here thanks so much I do think it is an important conversation about how do we live lives the lives that we can be proud of when we get to the end of them and by that I mean not lives where we're going to make no mistakes obviously but lives where we get to the end we we have fewer regrets because we chose to pursue a those things that are important and those things that actually matter and so certainly the book is about two steps you know number one about identifying what things matter and and what things are most important and then number two overcoming all of the distractions that our society throws at us that often keeps us from pursuing those things in the long run so I have a wife and two kids and I'm here in Phoenix Arizona U.S so it's good to be with you wonderful so great to have you with us and I think what's really important about what you're saying is that when I when I was going through your book and preparing for this interview I felt like yeah you know I know this but are we applying this in our life you know so it's really great to have this inner format where we can destroy people's attention to it so it's really great I wanted to read a couple of things the first thing was a quote by Seneca on the shortness of life that's what this was that's beautiful I love this quote one of my favorites I want to just read it you've got it on in your just that you I think it's chapter one we are not given a short life but we make it short and we are not ill-supplied but wasteful of it life is long if you know how to use it it's just profound and that really summarizes your book so would you talk a little bit about you know why you chose that particular saying by cynica who's a philosopher and how this launched you into this at literally page one chapter one and launched into this cold book there are three stories that that really came together in my life that kind of became the the framework and the thinking behind the book the book wasn't written for another 10 years but I read an article or I noticed an article back in 2009 by a nurse named bronnie Ware she was in Australia and she had worked with dying patients for years and years and so she wrote an article called top five regrets of the dying based on the different conversations that she had had with so many patients over over the end of their lives and the article was fascinating about the article number one the the five regrets are fascinating but was even what was even more fascinating to me was how popular the article became I mean it got shared millions and millions of times every major media Outlet in the world covered it it was a topic that resonated with people people were drawn to it even as I say top five regrets of the dying everyone wants to know what's what's on your list we're all waiting we're all waiting for you to tell us because none of us want to reach the end of our lives with with a lot of regrets around that same time my grandfather who was early 90s perfectly healthy he lived to be just shy of a hundred he called me into his office and asked me to play a part in his funeral showed me what part he wanted me to play and what he wanted me to read and asked me to say a few words and it was a life-changing conversation because I sat across the desk from someone who not only had planned out his funeral but didn't face death with fear not just not fear of the afterlife but not fear in that he had wasted his life like he talked about the life he had lived and what he had focused on and how he had lived a life he didn't use his words but how he had devoted his life towards things with meaning so much so that he could get to the end of his life and just recognize death is the next step that's that's going to happen and so that brownie wear article that conversation with my grandfather where I just began asking how like how do I get to that side of the desk how do I get to the end of my life proud of how I proud of how I lived and then I ran across that Seneca quote sometime about that about that same time and you stopped short of the the one sentence where he says you know life is long enough if you know how to use it but when life is wasted on heedless luxury and spent on no good activity we are forced by death's final constraint to realize it passed away before we knew it was passing and that really became the the driver behind the book what are these no good activities and what are these heedless luxuries that when we spend our lives focused upon them life passes by before we even knew it was passing wow that's amazing that is so fascinating okay I want I want what a lovely stuff I mean what a lovely way to sort of birth a book and birth a concept your grandfather did he the sort of things that he said did they align with what that nurse said was their similarity and can you just tell talk about those five regrets and Link it into your grandfather's conversation perhaps yes and no I mean I there were there were actually some regrets it's the the top five regrets if I can get him off the top of my head I wish I'd stay in touch with friends I wish I had been more courageous to express my feelings I wish I hadn't worked so hard I wish I had enjoyed life more and now I forget the fifth one shoot I shouldn't have tried to do it no no problem it's you that's good that you remembered full so yeah I wish I had courage to live my own life maybe I mentioned that one already those were the five and so certainly there were some that that aligned with with my grandfather courage to live his own life he was always loving compassionate and kind and stayed in touch with people so so that was also true but it was more of he had devoted his life to the things that were most important to him and and the things that were most significant in his heart and in his soul and he hadn't been swayed by by culture you know didn't take the bait so much to say as what Society offers and what culture offers and says that we should be living our lives for but didn't take the bait in that way and and stayed true to things that actually matter so fantastic I love that that's amazing I want to just read some from the back of your book kind of because it launches us this so beautifully launches us into what you talk about in the book resisting distractions is a battle worth fighting so we've really laid the nice foundation for that and you say every around you are distractions we know that the text you respond to quickly just to get it out of the way the newest money-making side hustle to cross your mind the evening's been organizing an overflowing kitchen cupboards disruptions of the enemies of a life well lived both the new distractions of Our Generation and Timeless ones that have existed for centuries may all add up to make you feel Restless tired and unfulfilled much of the time they keep you from living with joy from accomplishing the good that only you can do but that can change today and then you basically launch into in this book things that matter into the eight distractions so is that a good place to go now just to maybe give people an overview of those eight distractions and how you've laid it out in the books so it's easy for people to access the information yeah sure you know I think when when people hear the when people hear the title things that matter overcoming distraction to pursue a more meaningful life their first thought is oh good because I need to put my phone away more often and certainly to as you'll mentioned technology is technology in the trivial is definitely one of the distractions that we need to fight to overcome but it's actually the last chapter in the book and I think when people pick up the book they find that ham actually wrestling with pretty deep much deeper issues and and much deeper distractions like the you know the pursuit of I mean the distraction of past mistakes in our lives or the distraction of money and what that can become and so anyway I'll I'll leave it up to you to go through them no Joshua I think that's so good and I'm so glad you mentioned that because as you say it's just like it's almost overspoken the technology it's like I didn't want to make this about another technology podcast and that's why I'm so glad you actually referenced that because it was kind of going to be oh by the way yes technology because we just know let's talk about the Deep stuff because Technologies is our current in the face thing but these other stuff that's Timeless that you talk about and your grand father referenced and what that nurse kind of you know summarizes are way deeper things than the technology which you know is more of a you know it's there it's a problem but when you address the other things I think they can fall into place and oftentimes the technology is the symptom of of some of the some of the other distractions that we're chasing so go ahead sorry I like that no no that's fantastic I love that okay so in part one you talk about the objective and the obstacles and you talk about I mean there's so much here but I I like the distracted from meaning that crap because we can't go through everything so I'm going to pick out things that I know my audience is going to love distracted from meaning is your title in leading the Lesser crowd out the greater can you speak to that as a distraction the reality is that we we only get one life and we all have limited resources in the one life that we have we all have limited money we have limited time we have limited energy we have limited Focus we even have limited decision making abilities we have limited time with our kids like like all of life has to fit Within These boundaries and what often happens is we get told from the world from culture Society all the things that we should be filling into into this world you you should be buying the the new clothes you need to be chasing the bigger house you need to be on this social media platform you need to be watching this television show you need to be reading this book like you need to be involved here and involved there and we we just get constantly told all these things and in many ways when we add too much into our lives or when we begin pursuing too many things with our lives it is the the most important things that that get pushed out they get pushed out first the old illustration of putting the the big rocks in the jar first before filling it with with a bunch of little things a bunch of little rocks and a little sand and so that's kind of the point that that I was trying to get to and it really lays you know I think a healthy foundation for the for the book that when we add too many lesser things when we add lesser Pursuits it often distracts us from the most meaningful things I like that can you give an example from your life of how this has maybe changed and how that impacted your mental well-being my whole life online or what I'm what I'm most known for writing about is minimalism in terms of physical possessions and specifically owning less stuff and I was introduced to minimalism 13 years ago on a Saturday morning when I was cleaning out my garage my son was five and my my garage cleaning project just ended up taking hours one thing led to another and I'm off chasing this and trying to sort this around and like it was I just want to spring clean my my garage but it ended up taking most of the day Meanwhile my my five-year-old son was begging me to play with them the entire time and I struck up a conversation with my neighbor I was complaining a little bit about how many hours we put into cleaning out our garage and just how the project had kind of spiraled out of control and and she said you know that's why my daughter's a minimalist she keeps telling me I don't need to own all this stuff and I remember looking at this pile of things in my driveway like all the things I had bought all the things I had kept all the things that I was cleaning and organizing and I realized that not only were those things not making me happy but they were actually taking me away from the very thing that that did bring me happiness as I could see my son swinging alone on the swing set in the backyard and so it's just an example of like physical possessions aren't evil in and of themselves but when we when we constantly chase them when we constantly accumulate them we can accumulate so many that they actually distract us from things of bigger meaning so that's a pretty a pretty significant story and an easy and an easy one for picture to people easy one for people to picture absolutely so did your life change from that day did you did you change on did you get did you throw out your garage did you the stuff in your garage the things change in your home after that I'm interested to know yeah yeah absolutely we got rid of 60 70 of our stuff just the things that we things that we didn't need my daughter was two years old at the time and as soon as I started removing that distraction of physical possessions not just how many I owned but always constantly wanting more like that's as much of a distraction as as needing to clean out our garage and clean out our basement just always wanting to buy more and more and more yeah I found you know freed up money for for more important things it freed up resulted in less stress in my life more time with my family feel like I became a better example for my kids just even like inner well-being of more gratitude and more generosity and and more contentment and and less comparison and it's pretty pretty unbelievable what happens when when we remove that distress section of possessions from our lives I love that I and I can attest to that as well you know it was we moved from South Africa to the states and we had this enormous House in South Africa that was my husband was in the building industry we built our dream home and it was just gigantic and four kids and we had so much stuff I mean we when we left we just kept giving stuff away and giving stuff away and the house never seemed to empty it was just unbelievable in truckloads of stuff and you sort of think how in on Earth my kids are young then how on Earth did we manage to get so much stuff and so starting fresh in this country was you know that experience that you say that sense of peace that sense of care and it even and so it really impacted me that's why I was so fascinated with your you know wanted to dig deep a little deeper and get an example because I totally agree it gives you a sense of peace and now in this cut around me it really but I have to I have to get rid of it so I don't know if that if you found that as well definitely is that physical too much stuff around me definitely affects how I'm functioning so I'm just interested that's why I was asking has that does that affect you as well when you see I know it's a physical thing and it's an external but it has an internal effect on me so I don't know if you found that as well oh yeah oh yeah you you know every every physical possession around us is a is a bit of visual distraction is is how I it's how I explained it I was reading an article one time and compared our physical surroundings a little bit to to like sneaking up on a rabbit or sneaking up on a fly and even though you're behind the rabbit the rabbit somehow knows you're there yeah because just as just as animals like they're constantly scanning their surroundings even if you don't see them you know turning their head to do that or consciously looking at everything around them just subconsciously we're scanning and so we do the same thing and so just look around your room and think about how many times is that called from my attention and it's just visual visual noise I think is the the best way that that I explain it and the fewer physical things around us the the more we're able to to focus and have less stress I love that I love that that's so that's the the visual noise thing that that can is it is a nice pivot over to looking at some of the other aspects of distraction because you think you talk about the physical day but how it reflects on the internal that very often because people that for example have a holding issue and that kind of thing it's always because there's some internal issue so let's let's start now a little deeper and you have dreams overshadowed overcoming distraction of past mistakes or I want to jump down to I know that's the paralyzed will maybe let's briefly talk about that the paralyzed world and then I'd love to talk about the distraction of happiness and Applause you've kind of spoken about the position one already we jumped down to part three but let's yeah let's let's start with a paralyzed world and it's maybe fear and past mistakes because they can really consume Us and how they can actually become this clutter in our minds and this podcast is very appropriate to talk about that because this podcast is called cleaning up the mental mess so that kind of goes to you know your work goes to cleaning up the mental mess so yeah you know there's a whole chapter on fear which was fascinating for me to to learn about and and it's true if the most important things that we're gonna accomplish in life usually require us to be brave and usually require us to to be courageous and so you know not letting fear become a distraction in our lives can really because it can really hold back our potential but the other chapter and it was really by far the the most heartbreaking I think of of all the we did a survey I did a nationwide survey for the for the book and when we got the survey results back the I always say the most heartbreaking result we ask people are there past mistakes in your life that keep you from living the life that you want today and sixty percent of people said that there are mistakes in their past that keep them from living the life they want today and 55 percent of people said that there was a past mistake committed against them so not something that they did but something that someone else or nature did to them that keeps them from living the life that they want today and man that is a lot that's a lot of people who feel like they they can't live the life they want they're not able to live the life they want or have the future they want because of something in their past and I mean you would know better than I would like there's no easy answers to to overcoming this but the first step for sure is to is to turn back and and face some of those mistakes and and face some even some of those evils that might have been done to us and recognize what they are and begin the process and begin the steps of of over uh overcoming them because man there's so much potential in in your life and that's just so much potential in in people's lives not just not just for their own personal happiness but how much they could be accomplishing for other people and how much good they could be bringing into the world if we would begin taking the most steps so yes the the distraction of regret and the distraction of past mistakes whether we did them or someone else did them to us is a big one very interesting because it's interesting how you've pitched them as a distraction because people will look at those as traumas impacting how they how they function and to have a to sort of almost reconceptualize them as yes they are tumors and it does impact how you function and we can reconceptualize it but you also see them additionally as distractions to your sense of inner peace or your sense of which and as soon as you have that sense of inner peace the most natural flow outflow is going to be to reach out to others and to extend kindness and compassion and empathy and that kind of thing that will be so caught up with distractions those levels of empathy and compassion and distraction will drop off won't they I mean this is a kind of a natural thing because we're so caught up in that platter you can't see the wood for the trees and it becomes a spiral where we yeah because one of the key steps I think in overcoming that trauma is is beginning to help others and and beginning to serve others and seeing that we still have worth and we still have value you and that regardless of what we've gone through we can still play an important part in the world and we can still help others and and the more we do that then you know the more our self-esteem grows and and the higher view we take of ourselves and the less the the trauma begins to Define us and I always think when people get to this chapter on regret and past mistakes they're like okay this isn't a book just about putting down my phone this is a book that's you know really gonna Really Gonna cause me to to rethink the way I've been living and and what's maybe holding me back and that's why one little conversation to go in this direction because we just all know about the the Technologies you had to put it in I mean it is a factor but these are the you know we've got to get these other factors because the Technologies you've received in the beginning is very often hey I've got these distractions see all these parts are great these all these fields these are as you said 60 of people 55 of people they and I can tell you from my work too that this is a totally corroborate what you're saying this is what's holding it's a distraction that's holding us back so if we can the distraction controls us until we control it and I think that's also what I'm reading in your book is you may not have verbalized it like that but it is it's having it's got its clause in you and if you can start seeing them you see from the neuroscience at the minute we become aware of something and start not just being away awareness alone is only enough you've got to go beyond awareness and you know you've got to land the plane but you start getting empowered to get control and you know you may not be able to fix everything and you can't change the stories of the past because they've happened but you can change how they pair it into a future you know so that's a really good point that that's why I wanted to go down this road let's talk about this overcoming the distraction of happiness and the reason I I really want to talk about that and I've mentioned this a few times is because of our happiness culture that we live in the compare compete near liberalistic capitalistic Society where the external you've got to be happy and successful and if you're not there's something wrong with you and the positive psychology movement now I'm not knocking anything I am just putting things in perspective we can't just have one extreme and we live in a very extreme kind of mindset in the last sort of 60 years it seems to have been growing and this is from the work I've done that I'm seeing this and I'm interested to hear your opinion as well maybe seem to have shifted into Quick Fix external quick fast satisfied give me the five steps give me the three steps let me see how to get happy and books about happiness and pursuing happiness have just I mean they are like best sellers because people are desperate so let's talk about that from your anger which I really found fascinating yeah so the way I approach it is and the way I like to think about it is there are two Pursuits that come Pretty Natural to us the the pursuit of self survival at its most Basic Instinct and you know that we're going to pursue not oh not well we're gonna yeah we're gonna we're gonna pursue ourselves in some ways and then there is the pursuit of happiness which I guess is in our Declaration of Independence right like like it's pretty common to us and I I think it's probably pretty common to all mankind throughout all the ages the problem I think becomes when we confuse the pursuit of self and the pursuit of happiness and we think that we're gonna fulfill the pursuit of happiness in the pursuit of Self in the more I get for myself the happier I'm going to be when in reality almost all the positive psychology studies like all the studies and all the research show that people who live selfless lives are the ones who end up being have the the highest levels of well-being and fulfillment and peace and and happiness however they want however they want to Define that and so the problem isn't necessarily that that we're trying to pursue happiness I think the problem is that we're just pursuing it in places that seem like they're going to deliver happiness but they never actually do and rather than thinking okay it's not that money isn't making me happy it's not that you know having a lot of social media followers is not that you know having specific body image isn't isn't bringing me happiness it's just that I I don't have enough money or I haven't worked enough on my body or I haven't tried the right diet or I haven't tried the the next Quick Fix to to the different things rather than seeing actually what I need to do is once I start volunteering once I start serving once I become more generous once I start giving myself to other people that this is where I start to find real lasting happiness and so I'm not against the Pursuits and I do put a bunch of research and a bunch of studies in in that chapter that they kind of prove this point what what I'm just trying to say is that we were looking for it in in all the wrong places and we're kind of selling ourselves short a little bit of where we could find real lasting happiness very good and I think that also just to add that is sort of the misunderstanding perhaps or just the misrepresentation or whatever of the quantity so that like I'm a human and in order to feel to be successful I should be happy all the time meanwhile the research also shows that that is not realistic that moderate happiness is actually healthier because you embrace all of your emotions as a human and that develops your character so the the sadness and the you know the regrets and the noticing the the suffering of others that's very much part of what we that will make you not feel happy what you read a sad story and you read something that's happened to someone that response of of responding to that is important part of our character development so it's almost like you don't have to be happy 100 there's nothing wrong with being happy it's a great part of you but it's not 100 of the time but we've got to be able to get the so the just I think the distraction comes in and that as you say looking for the external validation of happiness or the external finding of happiness and it's pursuing for a long period of time and if I don't do something mentally wrong with me if I'm not always in one of those positive States you know that's where the balance comes in it's a it's a pretty it's a pretty brand new thinking that life should be easy and and life should be yeah you know but all of humankind mostly has been life life is a struggle and and this whole thinking that and that should be easy should be easy all the time is yeah can be very modern yeah you Quattro I'm very glad you mentioned that okay so let's talk about overcoming the distraction of approach which is kind of related talk to us about that from happiness I talk about distractions of money then the distraction of possessions then I get to the the destruction of accolades praise and Applause and it's one that I I can see myself struggling with quite a bit and and even mentioned in the book that this is probably the one that that trips me up more than more than any others and I I usually trace it back to to Childhood I I had a twin brother and a amazing parents and loving stable family that loved all of us the same but my brother was bigger and taller and he started on the football team in high school and I played on the JV tennis team and so just naturally that he would get more attention at Family reunions and he was in the paper and and I wasn't and I feel like I've I've spent my entire life trying to trying to like make up for that and and I want Applause and and accolades and I want people to to think that that I'm doing really well and I'm accomplishing a lot of things because I don't feel like I'm making up from something from when I was 14 years old still which is interesting but the the reality is you know when we there's nothing inherently wrong with attention and and praise and and we all need it to some extent but when we start chasing that we start cutting Corners sometimes I think sometimes chasing Applause means that we steal energy and time from from things that that are more meaningful and and more significant oftentimes pursuing what's meaningful and significant leads to Applause but I mean you can just be on any social media site and you can see people doing things just to get likes and and just to get followers and we might not all try to be social media influencers but maybe we still do the thing to try to get noticed by our spouse or in the little communities that that we're involved in as opposed to quietly putting our head down and and just doing what's important and and doing the hard work and and and helping other people and and living for others and and letting the letting the praise come as opposed to chasing it instead so I'm hearing you say that the chasing is the distraction and it takes it's that you know if you're paying attention to the little stones and the Big Stone of just developing who you are as a person is going to naturally bring the process and we can get so caught up that we can actually even miss the authentic approach that will naturally come at the right time that we actually can handle and it's more balanced and so on so yeah that's really important yeah wonderful there's so much plus it's I'll just mention plus it's not only is it not only is it authentic Applause but it's more satisfying Applause because we know that we lived a life true to our values and people are noticing that that is so much more joy bringing that helps our well-being so much more than hey people like people are liking my post but that's not really me like I'm being fake just to get people to to say nice things about me those Compliments are shallow and don't say anything don't amount to anything anyway as opposed to the very authentic praise because we we stay true to ourselves and our heart and soul and mind and that's that's so true I love how you say that so just to sort of round off you you were vulnerable there and explained about your twin brother so obviously this is something you've you've this distraction you've resolved or you're working on or you're resolving I think to be ever really fully resolved anything it's a lot it's a work in progress how has that what have you done about that how have you dealt with that distraction and the relationship with your twin brother and son I'm sure everyone's Keen to hear that yes well number one I just want to mention I I love how you said kind of cut kind of rephrase that about you know not so these aren't distractions I think that we we've we figure out and never have to to deal with again I I even love the title overcoming distraction to pursue a more meaningful life it's not that we eliminate these distractions and that we never have to wrestle with them but we struggle with these every single day probably and I think that's the the Journey of life is to identify what's important identify what's distracting us from it and then it's it's worth the battle to overcome those distractions for things that matter yeah my brother and I have always had a a fine and good relationship and it's always been I think more a me issue than than anything that anyone did wrong or or did did incorrectly have I resolved it I hope so is you know number one I think just certainly being aware of it being aware of it can can help but it's possible it's not it's not all that that needs to take place and I think that when you when you decide that you're going to find your fulfillment and you're you're going to find your joy and you're going to find your meaning in living your best life living up to your potential focused on the things that matter to you I think this is how we begin to overcome any and all of these distractions including this one that's excellent I love how you said that and I think it's so important because what you're talking about is mind management which is something I talk about all the time and my work and just cleaning up onto mental mess is an ongoing process it's kind of hey it's okay to be a mess the fact that you can talk about this the fact that you can share this on a podcast that thousands of people are going to hear and you've obviously spoken about this to your brother you're obviously managing it so the awareness lead to a management and it's a process and that in itself is authentic and is a way of managing the distractions so I really really like that you use that example and thank you for sharing that and thank you for sharing your wisdom today and encouraging us to take a more minimalistic and least distracted approach to life so it's really fantastic so how can people get hold of you and find out more about you and get your book the book is things that matter overcoming distraction to pursue a more meaningful life and it can be found anywhere and everywhere and my home base online my website is becoming minimalist.com I do a lot of different things online but that's always the best place to to find me and what I'm working on so thank you so much for this appreciate it appreciate all the work you do thank you so much well it's been a great discussion I've really enjoyed it thank you for being with me today
#Podcast #Minimalism #Improve #Mental #Health #Mind
source
If Brain is hardware
Mind is software or firm ware
Thoughts are information
The tree roots are data
Am I getting you?
❤❤❤
He was right. Found this list
The 5 Greatest Regrets of the Dying are:
-I wish I had the courage to live a life true to myself, not the life others expected of me.
-I wish I hadn't worked so hard.
-I wish I had the courage to express my feelings.
-I wish I had stayed in touch with my friends.
-I wish that I had let myself be happier.
Happy Thanksgiving Dr. Leaf❤ Hope to see you in the Houston, Texas area soon!