YOU GOOD? How to Check-In Without Being a Weirdo by Shan and Gravel (#251).

YOU GOOD? How to Check-In Without Being a Weirdo by Shan and Gravel (#251).



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The YOU GOOD? episodes are unlike the THT interviews you might be familiar with. They are conscious conversations with the purpose of educating and helping.

This week, Sean Mussett (aka Gravel Burns) and I discuss and outline 7 ways to check-in on someone who is going through a rough patch, suffering from poor mental health, or even suicidal. 

Don't know how to talk to your mates? Here's some ideas.

Shan

Call 13 11 14 (Australia) for crisis support or suicide prevention 

Lifeline Website. Click HERE. (https://www.lifeline.org.au/)

International Suicide Hotlines (most countries). Click HERE (https://blog-opencounseling-com.webpkgcache.com/doc/-/s/blog.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines/) for the list.

Red Cross Mental Health First Aid (MHFA) course. Click HERE. (https://firstaid.redcross.org.au/mental-health-first-aid/?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwytS-BhCKARIsAMGJyzrwJ–mEtFvIr5xVJLKcgh1ocyqT467fDIV66rKhiRWH-_8-XBo_P4aAnvBEALw_wcB)

References (During episode)

When we were talking about the benefits of human touch: 

Field, T. (2010). Touch for socioemotional and physical well-being: A review. Developmental Review, 30(4), 367-383. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.dr.2011.01.001

When we were talking about the psychology of “doom scrolling”:

B.F. Skinner’s behavioral psychology (referenced by by designer Aza Raskin when creating the “infinite scroll” function).

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Music credits:
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what's your best memory of the Bol gravel burns my best memory is just to the community that it created from the organizers through to the ever increasing number of skaters that came it just encompassed skateboarding at that time well grav get down to Bondi on Saturday March 22nd for the first ever Bondi bow bash organized by Bondi riders in collaboration with nexo clothing everything about this feels good that collaboration feels good the fact that Ty coings involved as one of the organizers who I will add was the first person to ever win a bow ofama back in the day they bringing back the essence of the early days of bolama it's the Bondi bow bash Saturday March 22nd yes [Music] you good yes this week we're talking Mental Health First Aid with friend and past guest gravel burs it's a bit of a different format for me it's not an interview it's more of a conscious conversation with the purpose of being educated ational and helpful and gravel and I felt compelled because we often hear people say oh you've got to check in with your friends you've got to talk to your friends but how do you actually do that and what are some strategies that you can literally Implement like how do you start the conversation and we actually roleplay some scenarios in this episode and you'll hear it's it's not easy takes practice and repetition just like anything else I hope you get something out of it drop me a comment and send me some feedback on how you feel like the episode went look it's a bit clunky at first but as the conversation sort of heats up I think it starts to get better so the first hour little bit awkward then it starts to open up into what turns into a deep and meaningful conversation with a close friend but like I said the tht interviews will continue so stay tuned and uh hope you get something out of you good this week [Music] [Music] uh yeah my resume okay I'm currently a teacher a special needs teacher in a behavior setting um I've been there for this I think it's my 18th year I've been teaching on the payroll for 20 years um I am a skateboarder I'm sometimes an artist I'm a a completely flawed musician um yes and I I'm a I'm a partner a parent a friend um I'm a colleague I'm a son I'm a sibling that's kind of covering me when you say you work in a Behavior Center dealing with young people who have behavioral issues what are the common diagnoses oh we look all the diagnoses we got the ADHD a a um OCD all the the stuff that you see in here of kids struggling with in mainstream schools they just they can't focus they're not engaged they they have uh literacy issues it's what we see in our setting is mostly it's an environmental problem so they've come from unsupported or really struggling backgrounds um and they've you know they've just they've come to school unprepared like uh if you're lucky if you if you've been brought up you know supportive nurturing place you go to school and it's sort of a little bit like what you've been doing for the last 5 years you learn things you watch things you you have positive role models these kids haven't had that stuff and so they just can't function in a mainstream school with that kind of level of intensity and expectation bit of background on me I think I've really been open about my background yes I have a bachelor of Education specializing in health from University um I've been an educator for 20 years in the public system I have experience working with emotionally disturbed students and students you know have a who have a variety of mental health diagnosis and I guess over the years I've accumulated a bit of knowledge I've done a lot of professional training because it is a passionate area of mine and I've gravitated towards that kind of training and I did do a Mental Health First Aid course I guess grab and I want to both emphasize that we're not saying we're experts on this this information is public it's findable very easily and we are just going to give you the tools and maybe relate our personal experiences but we always encourage you to seek your own answers and speak to professionals yourself directly but we want to just spread the The Good the good messages and the way we can help people cuz on this podcast over the years you know one of the most common themes is people talking about their mental health and you know the loss of friends through self harm substance abuse it's just common as so that's the motivation for doing an episode like this so a few background things about mental disorders in our country so the prevalence is that the lifetime prevalence um of in Australia is approximately 45% of Australian adults uh suffering from uh some type of mental health disorder at some point in their lives so that's 8.6 million people in our country will experience a mental disorder at some point in their lives and that's referenced from the Australian Bureau of Statistics the also on the Australian Bureau of Statistics um data they talk about 12month prevalence so that means around 20% of Australians experience a mental health disorder in any given year so common mental disorders that are prevalent in Australia because that's who we are is anxiety disorder and that affects 14.4% of the population with a higher prevalence in females effective disorder which includes depression impacts 6.2% of Australians with an equal gender distribution and substance use disorders in Australia present at 5.1% of the population with a higher prevalence in males which is 7.7% compared to females 3.3% and this is all from the Australian Bureau of Statistics you can go and look it up yourself if you like I don't want to put too much energy into the stats because I want to just talk about strategies moving forward we understand there's a problem I think we all know know people that have a problem so how are we checking in with our mates but before I start with the seven key tips on how to approach a mental health check-in conversation gra just freestyle it you've got a lot of mates a lot of people love you myself included what are some of the signs that you see in some of your friends when you know they're not running well I think straight up and I do this myself I'm you go off the radar you you're not you're not around like you you've got you you know let's let's talk about skateboarders we're both skateboarders we're talking to skateboard people you if you ask if you are skating you're going out on your own and you're not sort of hanging with the crew as much as you might have you're not answering calls to go for a skate I think that's especially as especially adult male because I'm one so I've got experience in that if you're starting to drop off the radar from your friend group or your or your social groups there's probably it's probably a bit of an indication like it can be just work related family related you know as you get older you you've got less free time but if you're if you're in a if you're into a normal routine of hanging with your mates a beit confiscate uh or doing whatever kind of hobby exercise whatever it is is you're doing and you're not going and doing that at the same sort of frequency or regularity there's it's a bit of an indicator something's not right so they're not answering their phone they're not coming to hang out things like that they not accepting invitations you know that's particularly with social anxiety problems you and that can that's that's just one of those things that just pops up so that's something that's a red flag view that's I would because I know that I do that if I've done that in the past I know that I just like just sort of get inside of myself and I can't go and I just don't feel comfortable going and doing those those social things and I've seen it with my I've seen it with friends and I've seen it with colleagues I've seen it with you know all people in all walks of my life they just sort of dive out on you and you go that and then sure enough you ask the question yeah and you get if you ask the question you get an answer of yeah this has been happening interesting so the red flags I look for in friends that is Ely W they're not responding they're not answering the phone all of a sudden or for a long period of time or they've faded out uh I generally make it about myself cuz I'm so self-centered and go I think that I've done something to offend them when it's it's not it's not usually that but I think other signs that I see in friends is obviously excessive substance abuse I just noticed that they're drinking excessively or they're partying regularly and when they do party it seems to turn ugly or they become like really obnoxious and you don't want to be around them the other one I find is that they become increasingly irritable short temper and maybe offensive socially uh inappropriate when I start to see those kind of behaviors I guess subst the substance thing really sticks out to me the most but when I do start to see those like sort of socially obnoxious not even caring behaviors in front of people then that triggers a red flag for me I'm like okay maybe we need to have a conversation so let's consider those so you've just said isolation substance abuse you know disappearing being obnoxious rude to people irritable yeah and yeah I think you know say you're in a like well we're all in some kind of we we relate to people we're in some kind of relationship whether it's a friend or a family or your personal domestic relationship whatever you call that you if there's a if there's a real shift in how that person's relating to either their partner or their kids or their colleagues or you know you I pick up on that really quickly that's a real red flag for me because sure relationships are difficult but you tend people tend not to go on Mak massive critical shifts in their relationship status without something some other precipitating Factor being a problem you know you don't like I I in my experiences I've I've had long-term relationships that I've ended and the relationship was definitely something that could have been worked through or maintained but a heap of other stuff was going on and you're like I can't doing that is actually more than I've got at the moment interesting okay yeah well it's it's really great that we're having the conversation about it and highlighting these things so I'm going to go through number one and this is directly from the Mental Health First Aid course and the link to the mental health first aid website is in this episode's show notes so you can scroll down if you want to read basically what I'm reading and also research further and maybe you want to do the course to further extend your knowledge in this area if you're finding it something that you feel like you'd benefit from so the first one is when you want to start a conversation about mental health choose the time and place so be very like tactful if I put it in skateboarding terms like maybe not at the skate park when there's a session going on if your friend is actually skating and getting some activity give them that space it could be their nice outlet that they need and um you know find a quiet private space where they feel safe I think is a very obvious one the other thing is um you avoid bringing up when they're like in a rush so maybe set the scene and go hey have you got a minute for a chat you know not don't try to springing on them when they're trying to do their shopping or they've got to go and pick their kids up or they're on the way to somewhere they want to be so you know pick the time maybe plan the time so again during a Skate Session maybe if I had to put it in skate terms wait till after the session when crew is going home and you're all physically exhausted and you know you've just got this moment one on one so what do you think Sean anyone anything you want to elaborate on yeah I've like one of the strategies that we've that have has really come become a big one in co-regulation is that kind of walk and talk strategy or drive and talk strategy so you're not you're in a kind of next to each other kind of space so it's not that confrontation of eyeballing and because that's people will I do it you you're sitting you and I have done it you sat in the car made a three-hour trip take 4 seconds dude because you're just you're you're you're both in the same space you're you're engaged in the same thing but you're not facing each other you haven't got that eyeball contact that real strong like walls up kind of thing you know you know what it's like when you're in an interview or you you being naughty and the teachers looking at you or your spouse or partners across the dinner table and you've said something dumb you know you're in that zone and but yeah co-regulation is if you're if you're sitting in a car or you're walking along a foot path or you're you know you're heading somewhere and you just relax and next to each other you don't have that you don't have the walls up of feeling like you're being interviewed yeah good one yeah yeah I got to work on that like not doing a podcast with my friends without microphon but yeah so like you're saying suggest a casual setting like walking and talking driving and talking which reminds me of like I drove 6 hours with Jim Turvy one day to alala yeah and it felt like it went for like half an hour and we talked about everything and it was like the best therapy session I could ever have asked for so during a walk over a coffee now when I had Jack Brown on the show he's the president of organization talk to me bro which is a Suicide Prevention initiative that has become quite successful because it's just just done really well and he's worked really hard at building it he mentioned that casual setting but doesn't suggest doing that over a beer in a pub not a good context that culturally has been the way I think for a lot of Australians but we need to remember that alcohol is a depressant it's going to suppress the central nervous system and exacerbate feelings of I guess low feelings or negative feelings so he he raised that point and I I guess I'll raise it [Music] again hey so it's come to my attention that 83% of people that listen to this podcast don't actually follow or subscribe which kind of means that every time they listen they have to search it up as opposed to the show being in their show list on their preferred listening platform so for example Apple podcast is one of the most popular ways that people listen to this show you click on the purple icon on your iPhone and go to the show and you can hit follow same on Spotify and I also now upload all audio episodes to YouTube so you can listen there so subscribe it's kind of how it all works in this day and age I don't often ask people for calls to action but it does help the show it helps me expand it helps me get the messages of my guests as far as possible and kind of give them the respect that they deserve and I feel a deep sense of responsibility there so do me a favor hit the follow or subscribe button and support tht thanks [Music] it's funny that you bringing that up I'm I was like thinking about this this morning that where where do we go to meet we go to cafes yeah we drink coffee oatmeal CL well yeah what if that's your thing and um and you you know that's that's a drug you're you're getting a kind a different you might say things that you would normally say because your mind's racing whatever your heart rate's up you you might feel and and if you're a anxious SL agitated kind of person and that's your problem or that's a thing that you're dealing with you're going to feel differently if you're drinking coffee and the conversely like you say but where where do Australians particularly Australian men go we go to the pub that's where we socialize we go to the bolo after we've had a skate we they the places we go what where else do we go yeah well you know it's good we're talking about it I mean he's doing that better than not doing it I think so you know maybe that's something to think about like I guess we're brainstorming here and uh I really like what you said about caffeine yes it can for me personally too if I'm having a period of anxiety caffeine does not help yeah makes me aggressive Y road rage y sort of but anyway yeah good point I just think culturally it's a it's a tricky like I've I put it down to you know if you you're what do we do when we play sport we we play sport we're with a team or we're with a group or whatever then we finish our Sport and we go to the pub that's just like it's just such an Australian but I think to do the culture is changing though I agree with the Young Generation it's like this whole movement of like against alcohol cuz look coffee look it's let's face it it's fairly benign like I'm I'm sorry the the data and the history alcohol use shows that it's far from benign I don't want to preach just because I don't drink and I every I know a lot of I mean I'm always around people that drinking and partying and I was at the Belco Bowl Jam huge party settings but I think just put a lid on it right at some stage if you can but anyway yeah I do drink and I still agree with you I I know and I haven't got a problem with drinking you know I don't drink a lot of people much yeah but I drink by saying I don't drink too much I know that I drink too much yeah it's you know regularly drinking I'm glad we're having this debate because the jury's out on that one you know look if that's a setting that the person will only go to that's probably better than not better than is that what the conclusion we' come to I think so solving the world's problems here yes so tip number two is um Express concern without judgment now that's a good one for life in general is to not judge or try not to judge use eye statements to show you care so for example it could be something like I've noticed you seem down lately and I just want to check in sounds pretty formal maybe you can twist it make it sound more casual than that but that is the like the basic premise of I've noticed or I care about you and want to know how you're feeling again it could be contextual maybe that's something you'd say to an intimate partner or a close friend maybe not some random you've just met but I I care about you and then the last point I want to make is avoid sounding accusatory or making assumptions so example would be you always seem sad or what's wrong with you so avoid that use eye statements so yeah maybe give me a better one than those well yeah it's you like those I do I do I mean I like when I read through that um and I've read it before and when I read through it end the day I as you say it sounds very formal and a little bit you wouldn't use the person you're talking to you know well enough to know that they need to be asked the question you're not just as you say you're not just going to a guy you just met that serves your coffee in a cafe I I care about you yeah I've noticed that your where's my coffee yeah where I noticed that you know you normally stop and talk to me when you and I noticed you didn't do that today you okay you're not going to do that so the person that you that guy burned your milk the person that you're having this conversation with you know well enough to be having this conversation so you also know well enough how to phrase that question but it's it is yeah and look the non-judgmental thing we at at work we call it or just in life I've learned that it's about unconditional positive regard you unconditional positive regard you have to think about that person and it's it's it's hard to put it in any more clearly than that is a human being with a brain in their head just like you yeah and they've had life experiences they've had things go well and things go badly they're doing the very best they can get and that's all we're doing all any of us are doing is the best we can at that moment with the strategies we've got you can't judge them on that no it's not your place you can't look at them and say man you've had five beers today that's clearly a problem you can phrase it another way you can think about that person from a from a more positive non-judgmental way and we call that unconditional positive regard you've just got to be thinking about that person as as a human being with feelings and try and try and get to where you want to go with nothing but empathy and and caring not judgmental thoughts yeah that that approach of like oh like the example you used of like oh you've got a drinking problem it really ties back into the self centered nature of humans by default I mean I will admit it by default I am self-centered self- serving what's in this for me I want to be right all the time so when you say to someone you've got a drinking problem like really they're perceiving that as like like you know I I he wants to be right and I'm wrong okay he's better than me he's Superior to me and that's and that's only going to just put up a barricade and repel them into isolation in my opinion so can we do a role play how would you use an eye statement on me now to express your concern of me without judgment on the spot freestyle it go grab it oh you don't have any problems Shannon that's the most correct thing you've ever said Okay I I noticed that uh you're you know youve you've been a little bit uh concerned about a couple of things that are going on in your life and from the outside I noticed that's um it's making [Music] your your engagement in your workplace more difficult for you uh is there anything about that you can clarify that maybe we could talk about sorry to laugh but that's pretty formal dude yeah well we're we're having a very serious podcast oh do you want me to just say hey look okay as a m if we were just if we were just doing if like we just had this conversation seriously if I said to you hey like that stuff you just told me is pretty pretty intense are you are you sure you're okay with what's going on is there anything I can help you with okay yeah it's cool but it I must admit that just clarifies like it's a hard thing to this is challenging like and it takes practice Yeah and how how many people are actually practicing it or even mentally rehearsing it it's important yeah so and this is no I was I just went into this really formal setting cuz we're sitting here with headphones and microphones and I just did I did I went into give me give me like but then you did the Casual version so like if I was to do it You' be like yo Sean dog grabby grabby boy what's up I've noticed you're not your gravel man you're good yeah and that's the exact opposite of the kind of thing that I'd respond to no but it's yeah you you know I I reckon there's people in your life that that would be really appropriate to say that stuff to and and it look it's like I said before you're going to know this person that you're talking to you're going to know who this person is and what what they're going to respond to and generally and that's what this is about checking with mates but I don't I don't think we should Miss opportunities to help strangers you know yeah I'm sorry if it's if it's at all possible but I I have these I'm having these conversations in public more and more uh at skat Parks but I guess I'll share this like I was in Audi and a lady came up to me and said are you the guy from the podcast yeah which is a very doesn't happen often but and uh she's like I listen to into this particular episode and it really uh linked to a situation I had and we had this awesome conversation and then became immediately obvious that this person was extremely lonely extremely sad and knowing what I know now potentially could have led to who knows what we you know so I just felt compelled to give her the time to listen and I and I feel that I feel like if these opportunities do you know present themsel you know are you going to give people that time there's a lot of very lonely people out there yeah more than ever yeah I I definitely do I don't I you're you're a heartbeat away from being a widow in the street if you if you really just push it on people if you engage with people that aren't really soliciting but if someone if you get in a situation where somebody approaches you like that and you end up in a conversation I will definitely get very very personal and very personable with people really quickly cuz I think it's in your nature though well it is in my nature but it's also it's I I just I like I love hearing people's stories and almost every time you have these conversations whether it's a a a colleague at work I've just got a bunch of new colleagues that I'm working like I'm talking six new people that I've met this year at work and I'm i' I get in really close really quickly sometimes you know too much for some people but mostly it's just you know and then people are responding very quickly with opening up and being vulnerable and I think you do that and you've you're already help you're not just helping them you're helping you you you you're making new relationships you become someone they can trust and someone they can talk to but haven't you noticed that years of skating I know like especially when I was young as Street skating a lot you know you you're in the urban environment and you would you know meet bums in the street all the time cuz they the skate spot you want to skate at and sometimes they're aggressive and dangerous and sometimes they're lonely and sad and they can be funny as well and you have a joke with them and next thing you know like they want to have a conversation about their life and you feel this deep sense of sadness and empathy for them so I I believe that there's so much power in it in terms of building your own self-confidence it's like a hack helping others helps yourself because it gets you out of yourself and you're not thinking about yourself for a minute and again I just believe that so many people are just walking around only considering themselves and they're not putting the needs of others in in their in their um in their realm at all except for maybe their family loved ones kids I don't know um yeah and I think look to be to be fair to a lot of people um um they they're just in survival mode there's a lot of there's a lot of people out there in the world that just don't have the background the skills the support the knowledge the the information to get out of that constant grind of just surviving M and you have anything you can impart on people in that situation without being pretentious or preachy I think will help awesome preachy yeah and again through practice and repetition you'll get better at it just like anything so tip number one choose the right time and place tip number two express concern without judgment use eye statements don't be a superior wanker number three listen more than you speak now this is a big one for me especially interviewing people on the podcast like I've learned this I practice this regularly this episode's different it's not an interview it's a conversation with a good friend so listen more than you speak so that old saying like listen once no speak once listen twice I love that be present put your phone away make eye contact and Nod to show your listening so that's the biggest thing I've noticed with interviewing people when I'm listening to them is I make eye contact I'm nodding my head I'm using my arms and because I'm an audio podcast you're not seeing any of this but sometimes like I'm using my body language to prompt the guest to speak more so I'm like and they know they're getting all the signals without any audio from me so you can do it too remember there's variety of ways we communicate there's there's verbal there's nonverbal you know hands like hand movements eye contact facial expressions give them space to share without without interrupting so ask them a question of or I've noticed that you haven't been great lately is everything okay and then actually wait and listen and then when they're finished find your moments to chime in share add identify with them and then validate their feelings so some examples of that could be man that sounds really tough like hey I'm here for you if you need me you know maybe make some suggestions like do you need a lift somewhere or can I go and buy your groceries for here because you know you're obviously ly not in a good space that'll just give you a bit of time to you know recuperate from what you're going through and another one could be like I can see how that would be overwhelming for you there's some other eye statements Sean grav um any more I statements yeah it's that that um the the kind of thing that you're talking about there in terms of giving space and and active listening is it's a part a really big part of what we do at school it's it's it's called we we learned it we've been trained and we learned it as reality therapy and it's it's active listening and then trying to what we refer to as spiral down to what the actual need is that that person's trying to meet so you do you can't do that if you're not actively listening if you're if someone's talking to to you and they're explaining they're not going to come straight out they don't you don't I wouldn't to anyone regardless of how well you know them with the actual problem oh like say the problem is your dad just died well a lot of people are going to come up with 50 different behaviors around that in the workplace at the shops you know if you're a friend of that person at the skate park if you didn't know that you're going to see a lot of different behaviors and you might be concerned and you might go well your dad dying is a bad one because people would tell you that but say you know you oh you are you okay like you seem a little bit off today or you just seem like you haven't been yourself the last few days or um and they go oh yeah I'm just not feeling not feeling great you know I I haven't really been eating this week and you go oh that's wow that's that's a lot I can't I can't go 24 hours without eating I get really hungry and you know is there like you not feeling well oh yeah just haven't been feeling myself you know I'm I'm a bit I'm just a bit down and I just haven't got any appetite oh yeah like how long have you not had your appetite for oh you know the last week or so or has anything gone on in the last week or so that you know maybe would have so you're saying like ask subsequent questions so they'll give you a response and then follow that rabbit hole follow that pathway follow it and okay and then spiral down is what we build build and eventually now not saying it happens every time and but if you if you're an active listener and you're in a situation where you want to help that person and you and you really do have that kind of relationship you will find the source of what they and you know that's a that's a therapeutic strategy you're not really doing that with your mates that's not your job but active listening is what we're talking about and getting into those you know if you if you're in a position where you're having a conversation follow those their St statements through with supportive statements and questions about that because that shows that you're really engaged and listening for sure and you're helping yourself because you're not thinking about yourself for a minute and you're helping someone else yeah so that was uh that's tip number three so again one choose the right time and place Express concern without judgment listen more than you speak number four is to ask open-ended questions encourage them to talk more so this really goes in line with what you're saying so you know you can start with like hey what's been on your mind lately or even as simple as hey what's good you're good what's happening in your life at the moment or uh how can I best support you right now what do you need you need anything what can I do for you so really again with the questioning thing that you just mentioned I love that because once you get them to open up on a a fairly open-ended question it's like it becomes more refined more refined more detail detailed and then you you kind of can get to the you can help them to discover the source of their problem because they don't even know sometimes they just know they're feeling like [ __ ] they're not thinking straight and they go oh yeah you just helped me work that out thank you so ask open-ended questions and remember like uh it says here on the mental health website mental health check-in Mental Health First Aid website that if someone's hesitant like there's no don't put pressure on them like to share everything at once like if it's basic and that's all that's okay so don't pressure them and and interrogate them but ask openend questions and if they're like uh uneasy about it just let it go so number five uh avoid trying to fix their feelings now I've had girlfriends in the past say oh you you know you're just trying to fix everything and not actually listen so avoid trying to fix their feelings so instead of offering Solutions just acknowledge their struggle and it could be statements like that sounds really hard you're not alone I've had the same experience actually or I may not fully understand but I want to support you so just let me know what you need avoid dismissive phrases such as just think positive or the big one I get over it whatever it's all good it's not a big problem you'll be right you know she'll be right mate that that's a common one yeah I agree it's and it's one of those things that you said like I you it's really really you know yourself I know it i' I've found myself doing it sometimes where you go oh yeah I know what you mean I've had this thing happened to me and then all of a sudden you're talking about yourself again I I have I avoid try and avoid at all costs even going there with even though it's you're empathizing saying you have an experience like that they don't want to hear that no they don't want to hear that yeah whatever mate yeah um you'll get people disengaged from a conversation straight away because it's really really difficult to say oh yeah know what you mean the same thing happened to me last year and you sort of it's really difficult to do it with any kind of empathy you've obviously got over it yourself fine that's good you might have experience in that but I'm not in that space right now I feel like rubbish you're telling me that you did it and it's great yeah piece of cake don't do that it's it's a real tricky one to not fall into that one because it is you are showing empathy you are showing understanding you've got experience in that but it's it just comes off as it does yeah not it is it's really difficult yeah I mean if you know someone really well cuz you care yeah you do and if you know someone really well I've been in a situation where I've had friends go through a thing that I've been through and they come to you and say hey you've been through this how how long does it take or what what is there anything I can do so that to to make this different that's different if they ask you for advice and you something you've experienced sure tell them the whole nuts and B nuts and bolts I was going to say nuts and dice we give him the whole whole nuts and bolts but but don't just say yeah I've yeah I went through that crap you know they because they don't want to know that that's not helping them yes it's so true number six encourage professional help if needed so if the person seems overwhelmed ask them if they've considered talking to a therapist or a counselor and maybe offer to help find support for them if they're willing and that could be things like saying to them would you like me to help find your support I can look it up I can search it up find someone in your local area or if you really need I can go with you if you like to your first session as a support person no worries got a substance problem maybe AA would work for you I'll come I'll come with you to the meeting and I can sit in the group meeting if that would help and uh highly effective yeah all right number seven last one follow up and stay connected so check in again later so maybe give him a text message or call along the lines of I was thinking about our conversation like how are you feeling today or did you sleep last night after our conversation where what sort of night did you have do you feel rested and uh keep inviting them to activities like gravel was saying at the start he notices that friends just fall off they don't come out I guess in the skate because we're both skateboarders it's like keep inviting him for a skate hey like are you going to skate this Wednesday night yeah I'm down let's do it you know or just just keep them in the loop even if they don't respond I guess don't stalk them or harass them and um it's important that if you really care about this person like let them know that you're there for the Long Haul like not just once because mental health is dynamic it's constantly changing and it always passes when you're in the dark stormy times they do pass and it's good to be there for people during that but it's also good to show your friends that you're there with them through the good times and the bad times I think they wrote a song about that someone did yeah numerous songs yes you know so you want to sing it for us grav or you good no I'm good wrong I don't want to pressure you you sound you sound hesitant yeah I'm definitely not singing into this microphone the first song that came to mind is um Shivers by Boys Next Door I sang that yesterday I actually sing it pretty well Shivers by the boys next boys next door was was Nick C's first band it was was written by um rol and Howard and it's the it oh you'd know it it's I I don't know screaming Jets did a cover up but the first the first line is I've been contemplating suicide oh that's screaming Jets it's not is that a cover there is a cover yeah screaming jet how you can we're going to get in a punch up in a minute yeah we are you're going out that window pal no it's it's uh it was like a 979 song by Roland S Howard that Nick yeah well here you I'm glad I hope other people out there in the world are finding out that this is not a screaming jet song it's a really really it's a great song look it up boys next door um don't ever listen to the screaming Jets play Play It Again because it's not their song that sounds unpatriotic Sean yep love those guys stap love those guys yeah yeah one of one of the melb one of the um you do love the screaming Jets no I don't it's not then on my bag but um my Jimmy the human who's one of the skateboarders from the Old School Melbourne crew he's one of the guitarist in that band now and he's a great guy and he likes playing with them so they still play yeah yeah they still play man how are they what are you talking about we we never supported them but we played at the we played at the um South South Leagues Club in the back room when they were playing in the front room once so that's kind of like our CL my clan of Fame I played with the screaming Jets well yeah know they were in different rooms yeah but same venue same venue but no I'm it's not really my bag but um good on them you sure you don't want to like sing a few out man I don't know I don't know like this whole conversation's like gone sideways really quickly I feel like I want to bully you into it but you can try just kind of contradicts everything we're trying to do here I haven't got my guitar I'm not doing it without my guitar dude I'd love to I'd love to see you just rocking out showing grav that'd be great I'd love you to do that too but yeah I'm I don't tell anyone where and when I'm playing you know what's on my bucket list actually sing one song with the band in front of some sort of audience we'll have to or Not karaoke we'll have to organize that but I don't just just to like I guess I just got to do it just to see what it's like it CU to me it's the most terrifying thing in the world so it's like I want to just face that fear I reckon you'd probably you can probably sing I reckon you can re yeah yeah I reckon you can do you sing in the shower you like turn the music sing to my kids and in the car do you sing in the car really loud yeah see and you've got a good like you talking voice is great oh thanks man no well it is you know and so I can I can picture that you sing pretty well we can definitely arrange you singing in front of a you know it's funny man like my kids loved that movie with oh God Bradley Cooper and the I'm having a mental blank he was the alcoholic singer star is born oh did they remake that movie yeah they remade it with who's the Pop Princess that's in it Lady Gaga Gaga and she's epic she's awesome andway I watched her I watched it I went into that movie going oh what am I watching this [ __ ] for but then I started watching it I was like this is actually pretty epic and it's like deep like yeah guys are full alcoholic and she's trying to help minut it's it's real but there's a song in it called maybe it's time and my kids love it and it's like I sing it to them to be before bed yeah cool you want to hear it I do nah let see but it goes like maybe it's time to let the old ways die have you heard that one maybe it's time to let the old ways die it's beautiful song so you can see and it's Brad Cooper yeah anyway um yeah I do like that movie yeah I remember the original one as well what's that famous screaming jet song though the big one the big like the one that it's just not fair you know that I know better that I see don't say that to someone don't say to someone you know that I know better yeah we we use that song in a conference about Choice Siri which is where reality therapy comes from and we changed it that they I'm not saying we cuz I had nothing to do with it but they changed words and it was like the complete opposite of you know that I know better and I'm like what do you use that song for what's reality therapy it's the thing we it's that thing that we learned um a long time ago when I first started it's part of choice the where you're where you're helping you you're trying it's that spiraling down thing you're you're talking to people with the unconditional positive regard but you're trying to find the root of their problem like the need we think about it in terms of every single thing we do is a behavior and we're doing some of them are maladaptive but they're still there you're doing this Behavior cuz that's the best thing you got got at that exact moment in time sometimes it's just not the right thing to do and that's what we see mostly with our kids at school because they don't have they haven't been taught the strategies and that's what you're doing here you're actually teaching people strategies to help their friends or help themselves yeah and that's what I want to do I don't know how well this is going like I feel like quite vulnerable like even approaching something like that like this um but I do feel a deep desire to be putting things out in the world that are significant and helpful and I have made myself vulnerable cuz I've never like approached a podcast of this sort so thanks like sort of nursing me through it as well it's really been great having you as a support with it so I don't know I think it's going okay but I guess like I want to give people practical ways cuz I'm so sick of hear hearing people say just talk to your mates but just talking to your Mates is it's not that easy even like you can hear us now struggling sometimes to come up with examples and ways to start it yeah so that's authentic it's that's authentic without sounding like a weiro or a cook yeah yeah but anyway I'm going to read I'm going to keep pushing on so I'm going to recap the seven tips for how to approach a conversation about mental health with a friend one choose the right time and place two express concern without judgment three listen more than you speak use body language nod eye contact that's a big one number four ask open-ended questions and if they're hesitant don't push it just chill number five avoid trying to fix their feelings and a avoid dismissive phrases like ah just get over it she'll be right mate okay avoid trying to fix number six encourage professional help if needed number seven follow up and stay connected let them know you're in there for the Long Haul yeah good I'm yeah the the thing about eye contact is a tricky one because it's it absolutely shows that you're engaged sometimes it's not appropriate sometimes it's not culturally appropriate because it's a it's a disrespectful thing in certain culture you know they if someone's trying to make eye contact with you and you don't want to make eye contact because culturally that's a sign of disrespect it's you have to be aware of that stuff and it's sometimes it's just not appropriate and like I said before that kind of side bys side thing just puts people at ease in a conversational kind of way yeah it's I mean sometimes eye contact is the most appropriate thing cuz you're showing that you're engaged and you're really looking into a person's eyes and understanding what they're saying and how they're saying it and how they're feeling but it's like everything else we're saying it's contextual whether it's the right thing or not the right thing you should know that pretty quickly people be will be avoiding your eye contact like crazy if that's not working try something else yeah you know in my time on this planet I feel like people just want to feel like they're seen M and eye contact does that does directly because at the end of the day we're all living this experience ultimately alone and when you when you really like have it think about it like existentially yep yeah we are like we have partners and friends and family but really we're on the journey by on alone we we're going to we're born alone and we'll probably die alone yeah uh maybe people around us but you know so showing people that you genuinely see them by by looking at them and and nodding and listening and being being there with them is so powerful and I want to add a big thing I've noticed since starting the podcast is that the notion of loneliness so podcasts were profound for me before I started one because they were removing loneliness because I had someone's voice in my ears talking to me and had this feeling of like I was there it was vois I'm listening in on the conversation sometimes I'm part of the conversation cuz I'm I'm like adding my two cents just like to know one a mad person and then as I've started it now like this is like I think the seventh year of doing it you know over the years now I can honestly say like so many people have reached out and said I'm alone all day in my job or where I am and you know having the podcast to listen to all day uh really makes my day better you know so in this digital age it's yes it's got its benefits but I think it's also isolating people a lot and they're not they're not making human connections the digital they the digital they're making digital sorry they're making I went off in a bit of a weird tangent but they're making digital connections but they're not making tangible Real Life Connections that's an observation and it's it's it's statistically backed up and I haven't got the laptop in front of me but it it's true it's um people are isolating and like never before because they when they can isolate and feel connected and it's not real it's not a real connection it's not I mean it might be in the future because we evolve and but our brains are so slow like we're still we can't even come to grips with being in the workpl and going to school and that stuff's been going on for two or 3 hundred years the Industrial Age yeah we we haven't got groups with that yet we we're sure not got to grips with being able to stay connected with every single person you know every single minute of the day from your bedroom yeah we just aren't evolutionarily programmed for that so yeah sure you that's that's available to you and if you're in the work if you're in your car you know I love listening to you guys I I listen to you and Danny going to and from work the other day and it's great because I I know you both really well Danny van I loved that show I love that guy yeah I love that guy I've known Danny since I was 14 years old he's a great guy but I went to work to and from and I was in the car feeling like I'm sitting there chatting with my mates and that's okay because I'm not other people aren't available but I'm not the kind of person that sits in my bedroom having said that I have done that many times listening to your podcast and other podcast but I don't I know that that's not real connection and some people don't some people are losing grip on that they have oh I've got like hundreds of friends that I play games with no you're not they they're not your friends you don't know those people and it's funny this is really interesting and I'm just going to throw this in there because I think it's kind of it is related to I know it is related it's like that's definitely a scientific fact touching and hugging and you know obviously intimate people you hug but there's a there's a lot to be said for handshaking uh arm around the shoulder the closer you know someone or the more intimate you are those people the closer you you know you become physically but where're design to do that we need that you watch any kind of species of yeah of primates in in the in an any kind of environment and they are tactile and where it's becoming less it's I don't know whether it's just over what is that like um people being you know that there's just horrible things that have happened that have always happened in our species but are just in the news now so everyone's real concerned about who you can touch and who you can't touch um you watch sports and they there's a lot of hand slap and high fives pets on the back and that's because that you get a better result from groups if there's physical touch well I Googled it as you were saying it doing there I thought you were just off on a tangent and just like looking up a SK no no so this is referenced by a book by someone with the surname field first name t in 2010 and the book was called touch for social emotional and physical well-being a review developmental review and they cite in this book that physical touch has these benefits it boosts immunity so it touch touch stimulates the production of white blood cells improves immune function so you're right like it's just to back up what you're saying thanks I'm trying to be yeah good on you bit more professional now supposed to turn [ __ ] out there is it peer reviewed well maybe I mean it's a it's a published book so obviously if it's published they've put some more uh work into it and I'll put the reference in this episode's show notes if you want to look it up further uh it reduces pain it's no known to release endorphins the body is natural painkillers it lowers blood pressure and heart rate enhances growth development essential for infants neurological and physical development mental health and emotional benefits were cited in that book as reducing Stress and Anxiety so it lowers cortisol this is all just through human touch and bond and and and various types of bonding um increases oxytocin which is the bonding hormone improves mood strengthens emotional bonds yeah I could go on cuz there's a lot I can go on and I've I've I've been experimenting with it recently in yeah lots of different um like what do you call it spheres of my relationships not just um significant relationships like family and partner and but like with colleagues that are that are willing to hug I hugged I hugged my friend in the cafe yesterday who works in that Cafe and he said something about embracing and I said I'll embrace you and he gave me a hug and it's like you've you make a connection like and it just dissolves so much of whatever it is that could you know potentially I didn't have anything I wasn't feeling bad but you hug your children you do that for a really specific reason not just because you love them and it feels nice but you're doing it for that co-regulation of they literally need it they literally need it you have you need to like they need to be hugged something like 15 times a day yeah by both parents yes did I just did I finish your sentence no no no you I just like ideally yeah that would be great yeah I could look up the statistics around that in terms of delayed onset of psychological problems in that person so if they weren't hugged by both parents the required amount ties into a big conversation that one that yeah and that's I that's why I said I could go on about it because I can I've really strongly believe that that is it's become almost a taboo thing like to why because of fear of litigation be but just fear of being seen as you know especi as a male yeah ex well 100% And um so I've been actively feeling it's a bad way of putting it feeling my way around those Bo recently and talking to people about it and asking how often they hug their Partners or how have they been hugged when was the last time you were hugged and do who do you go to to be hugged if you're not in a relationship or your children are older and don't aren't sort of close by and it's it's really crazy how many people don't have a regular hug it is and again because going all the way back to the start of the conversation around the these digital connections that they perceive as they've made and I probably have done it myself looking at how many followers I have like I've got that many followers like yeah but lonelier than ever and then I think the Fallout is like it's it's almost like a it's almost like a big scam really because the Fallout is they do wake up one day and go I am lonely and sad yeah and the only thing that actually will subdue that or numb it for a minute is more of that and the expectation of that is where the dopamine comes in you know the idea of you what you're getting out of your phone is not a reward it's the expectation of what you're going to get out of your and that's why the flicking thing works so effectively I don't know if it was designed by neuroscientist I was yeah so you're flicking and it's like you think about what you're doing don't don't anyway I won't get into people not being present in what that's all about but it's it's a it's a scam man you're getting you're getting robbed well you know you know they mimicked the Pok machine yeah well like it's sort of obvious where it's got no end yeah yeah yeah it's so funny when you and it's it's it's literally when you when you watch yourself I've been watching myself in cuz you know Belco was on a couple of weeks ago I have I don't engage in social media hardly at all but I really loved the the hype coming into Belco and then Eric and pang's photos and a few other people putting photos up from Belo and it's just so great to see it from through the lens because you you're there you were there you're on the platform you see it but you see someone with a really crisp photo of something crazy and sick and you it's it's like revisiting it all again anyway point being I spent a lot of time in the last couple of weeks flipping through um Instagram looking for those photos and you you hit a like on something and then next thing you know like three screens down that comes up again well that's not there it's not real it's not real the algorithm's just going oh that guy's just clicked on that person I'll just put it I'll just keep feeding him that and you say you get so you are you're getting the reward of that but it's not real it's not like that if you'd have picked your phone up and clicked on something else and scrolled through it would be giving you something else you have to realize that that that what they're giving you is what they wanted give you not what you want to see yeah you know even though you're liking it but any anyway it's like the Poké machine it's exactly what it is well endless scrolling also known as infinite scroll was in was created and invented by a computer designer called AAR Rasin in 2006 while working on a social media platform development and even though psychologists didn't invent it social media platforms used the psychology to keep users engaged okay because the science shows based on PF skinners Behavior psychology that the scrolling activates the brain's dopamine system which you just said which is linked to pleasure and rewards and then also um it creates loss aversion and fear of missing out so fomo so the idea that something better might appear if you keep scroll makes people reluctant to stop so they've used psychology so I wasn't created by psychologists but they tapped into psych psychology research and that's it's you you feel like the you feel like what you're doing is a reward yeah but it's not the the dopamine's activated pre you doing it it's the expectation of you doing it it's why when you buy something online and we've wish not everyone had done it but I feel like everyone's got an experience and even I have which is so disappointing in my so you see something you look at that you whatever reason you decide yeah let's buy that and then you go that's the that is when the dopamine kicks in and it comes and you're like what was I thinking when I did that that was that's that's cheap or it's nasty or it's ugly or it's not well I don't need one of those or whatever but you've already had the dopam man hit the dopam man hit doesn't come when you when the package arrives in the mail well it's interesting that as a Rasin is his name later regretted inventing the infinite scroll saying and I quote if you don't give your brain time to catch up with your impulses you just keep scrolling he now advocates for ethical technology design to reduce compulsive behaviors online so I remember when Facebook first came out it would your feed would stop when all your friends say you looked at all their posts and there was no more post to look at it would stop do you remember that yes and it was around 2005 2006 these are early early days so like let's say I had 10 friends I've seen what my 10 friends have put up oh it's finished y until someone else posts again yeah so sometimes you would like I remember would just like try and wait till someone posted and but you wouldn't see anything but now it's got no bottom but I remember then Facebook clued into that and then created the bottomless scroll around 2006 2007 yeah right yeah yeah I can't I don't I haven't done Facebook for a really long time but it's I mean all the same they all do the same thing yeah again like I think responsible use but I just feel that humans are so impulsive uh we really have trouble regulating especially if something feels good y you know you can't run on self-will yeah like your self-will like we can do a lot with self-will but when it comes to these like deep I guess Primal instincts of whether it's hunger sex uh potential sex St St they're they're very powerful things they're very powerful desires and that's what I'm talking about we we're not there's no way we're going to evolve out of this anytime soon cuz we're still doing that stuff we've been doing that stuff for hundreds of thousands of years those impulses are so entrenched but our capacity it's normalized yeah and and our capacity for dealing with this modern stuff it's what is it 20 years old yeah 2006 was that thing the infinite scroll so that's yeah that's going on 20 years old where there no way we're going to evolve the capacity to but you know how you you said that you know that a social media friend or a digital friend or digital connection is not real because you weren't born into that you were born in another generation when when friends were friends friends were friends come home when the street lights come on all that stuff but you know we are looking at a generation that are literally born into it and not just born into it like there's parents that are using it as parenting to give them rest bite from parenting and yeah these kids are just building such a dependence on it and you see it we both see it day in day out and it's look I was having this I've had this conversation a couple with a couple of people at work today just to get other people's point of view on but it's parenting's it's a job okay if you if you don't want to do that job don't have children but people just do and like you you're not going to take any other job people like people take their dogs for a walk they feed their dogs they talk to their dogs they pat their dogs all of those things because that's kind of the role of a dog owner and this is it's a terrible thing to say but they would never just neglect their dog or their pet whatever their pet is Hash fur baby but yeah whatever but they but they're unwittingly doing that with their children and they don't they don't think that that's what they're doing it it is heavy because we as you say we see the results of these kids and look I I always say you know I'm I we evolve you know we I say to people all the time you know you can't just go down the street and buy horseshoes anymore why is that ride horses we've evolved and this we will evolve to figure out this world and I don't want to sound like a dinosaur because I hate being I I really believe in things things changing and evolving and and life becoming better how good is it when you run out of money at the bank and at the shops you don't have to just leave your shopping there and you you can just get your phone and Chuck more money in your account just do bank transfer just like that how good is that it's a good world that's a good world to live in if you got money to transfer yeah obviously there's people out there who don't no but they already know that yeah so they're probably not going to try and transfer money they I tell you who's not though he's freaking he's as a as a Rasin he's not having problems transferring money he would have made a a bundle of money of of that idea but he's uh he's like it's like the Robert Oppenheimer of uh digital technology isn't it he G oh that was a bad idea I wish I didn't come up with that it's a heavy comparison well you know what I'm saying oh is it as dangerous I don't know no I'm not okay don't go there but I'm going to put a link to the um skinners behavioral psychology book uh that I just referenced in regards to the psychology that was used to create the infinite scroll if you feel like looking that up H anyway listen I do we are starting to get towards the pointy end of the show and I I'm not going to showy away from the next thing I want to talk about because I think it's very crucial grav and I have both lost friends to suicide and I've also lost a family member to Suicide which is still to this day hard to talk about and anyone that has experienced it knows that the feeling that immediately comes over you is that you wish you spoke to them or you wish you seen the signs or you wish you did something and it's a very hopeless feeling and we're going to just look at strategies like you know how do we talk to someone who might be suicidal and this is directly from the mental health first aid um strategy and uh when I spoke to again Jack Brown who is a suicide prevention initiative founder have talked to me bro he his philosophy was that we you know we need to be talking like a lot of people try to avoid it or dance around it like no like you need to be direct with this so if you think you have a friend who might be suicidal these are things that you can do so first one is ask directly are you thinking about hurting yourself you can ask them that take them seriously don't assume that they're just being dramatic help them find immediate support So Call a crisis line or uh Emergency Services if needed and I will put those numbers like Lifeline in this episode show notes if you're in Australia and I'll also look up the international number uh I know there is one for like a similar thing to Lifeline in uh various parts of the world and um some of the examples that they sort of reference in the mental health first aid kit is uh things you can say to someone is such as I'm really worried about you have you been having thoughts of hurting yourself ask them that or uh you don't have to go through this alone let's find someone who can help now if they admit to Suicidal Thoughts stay with them remove access to harmful items and get professional help immediately is what the recommendations are there um that was kind of hard for me to say and talk about but I'm glad I have put those things out there yeah my heart's like absolutely thumping right now why just because it's heavy because it's you know it's it's I want to say unnecessary it's it's it's that feeling of hopelessness when you feel like you've got nowhere else you can go and you actually plan and act upon something like that it's it's such a terrible thing and it's just so it's become so prevalent and this the you know the stats you were giving earlier about the age group and the demographic of of the most the people at risk are the people that I know who have taken their own life and in that age so what do you mean what stats which one well in terms of what the you know young men between 25 and 35 which is the predominant demographic that listens to this podcast yes so where you're hitting the target Mark of the people who are feeling that sense of helplessness and hopelessness yeah and I that just brings me like I just know that there are people out there feeling that way and it's I it breaks my heart and you can't reach them all but you can reach the ones you know yeah that's and then you know if one person who's listening to this gets upskilled in a way that they can go and approach a friend who might feel that way this is worth sitting and doing yeah I just again I'm just want to tap into the advice I've been given through this course and also again like I keep referencing the talk to me bro guys because you know they've really delve deep into how to help people with this and you know I think wonder how many lives have those guys saved yeah because they're giving people the tools and they would go much deep deeper into it and so I will definitely put a link to the talk to me bro website which has like a really good detailed range like really Builds on what I just said but fundamentally you know um again being direct is is very key with the suicide stuff sometimes people um it's it's very uncomfortable for people to raise it's a heavy thing and they don't want to ask someone directly like that but the recommendation is that you ask directly are you thinking about hurting yourself yeah you know and if they are and if they say they are okay and or you suspect they are like just immediately like get professional help I think Lifeline would be the first call I would personally make I don't know what you would do Sean but and uh and tell them my friend has said that they want to hurt thems or I suspect that they're going to hurt themselves what do I do from here and um you might save a life I guess yeah yeah yeah and that that those questions of uh do you have a plan do they do you have you gathered a way of doing this is that available to you right now all of those things especially if you're not there if you're there as you say you stay there stay there and you work through that until there's somebody there that's more capable of helping or more experienced in helping than you are but yeah it's a it's a it's a horrible and heavy thing yeah well it is a horrible and heavy thing but it's happening all the time yeah like you know and I look I don't want to Rattle off the stats like I because I did look up statistics around it I just I'm sick of giving it energy look it's a lot it's high and most people have been affected by it either directly or maybe one or two two people removed but you've all we've all like experienced it in some way so let's not dance dance around it anymore like let's just stop it by talking about it and and asking people you know how they're going like talking and talk literally talking to people and I mean that's the motivation today is just to yeah change the the stigma which is definitely changing and and build build a a culture of communication and I don't want to say just in men because it's almost cliche to go oh men don't know how to communicate I reckon we do we just um need to work on it a bit more and we just don't do it as good as other people and you're you're right it's ch it's definitely changing my my my language has developed my feeling of openness has developed over the years from being around younger people who are who are doing it I see them doing you know my my son's cohort of friends are in their mid 20s now um so great to see young men young boys they're just boys they're in there what are they somewhere between 10 and 15 at our school have just changed the way they can relate to each other yeah and are so much more open than they were 20 years ago and that's you know you're talking about some postcodes that are pretty hard work where you wouldn't expect it you wouldn't expect these kids to be so sensitive and so open as young boys interesting so yeah and that's that's improved so I I find that I find that really heartening whether that's through education or whether it's through a generation of their fathers and mothers who were a little bit more open yeah um but it it's definitely changing it is changing culturally systemically yeah that's a whole another conversation I think there' be people out there who agree with that but let's not go there we are here for positive things we want to give you the tools and how to start conversations and I just want to add one more thing just in regards to questions I said you know ask direct questions and again some more direct questions that you could ask would be have you been having thoughts about hurting yourself are you feeling hopeless about the Future these are these are more subtle ones and do you feel safe right now and uh do you have a plan to harm yourself so ask them that qu those questions you know and if they're in a really unhinged State um yeah get help stay with them remove anything of danger don't let them out of your sight y because like again the um the talk to me bro ethos is that it's a rough patch not a rough life and when you came over to my house tonight Sean you were like um talking about some dark times that you've probably experienced without going into details and you got through them and you had people that have support you but then the lesson that you learned from it all when other dark dark patches came in your life is that they do pass they do every single time and I've learned that's one of my biggest lessons when I've been in like the Dark Night of the Soul have you heard of that I've heard of the phrase yeah yeah those dark The Dark Night of the Soul where you feel like there's no end to that tunnel there is and it does and then it's beautiful and I don't know it's special I've had guests on here like I I was thinking of James McMillan he was in The Dark Knight of the Soul really at the end and he got through it and he said his words were like colors never looked so bright and smells never smelled so good and he's a surf and waves Never Felt So Good and you know anyway and if you don't yeah you like you well anyway you know what you're you're saying what I was thinking is that it's it feels like it's never going to end but it always does it's a ride it goes up it comes down that's life it's hard there are challenges but there are always people around you I'd love to think that that was true for everyone I'd love I really would love to think that that was true for everyone it's not always true but generally there are people around who can support like can I ask you like this experience that we're having as humans is turbulent it's it's always going to be no matter if you're rich poor everyone's got their issues of some type whether you're in the top end of the you know High Society or low sces you're going to have issues like over the years what have you found works for you in life for managing highs and lows yeah I mean don't just say skateboarding no it's it's but it's definitely it's it's it's all of those it's all of those things um I'm going to say this because it's and know I'm going to misquote for sure but I was talking to my son this morning on the way to work about this and he said he he he heard this thing recently where somebody and a psychologist I think was saying to a person if you had to like you know if you you know if you sneeze on someone that's a really good way to give them a cold yeah right cough cough in their face that's how you give someone a cold if you wanted to say to someone hey I I want you to give yourself depression what would you do and they go well I would probably isolate I might eat badly take like abuse substances not have healthy relationships uh quit my job all of those things that's that's how you give yourself depression like like it's not it's not the root it's not always what happens you know it's it's Al it's a very compc ated chemical thing but if you want to not have depression you have to not do some of those things so I do the opposite of that I try and I I maintain healthy regular relationships in all sorts of different like colleagues friends family Partners um kids I work with you know they they're that's really really important for me is to have and it can be the most insignificant kind of context like friends that I see like people people I know who work in shops that I go to regularly chatting with those people I I need to do personally need to do some kind of exercise really regularly like I'm I found that out when I was a really young kid I'm not I'm got a day or anything but I can't sit still and I if I don't do exercise I feel myself being just falling down in a heat mood wise um I feel better it's probably not the worst thing in the world but I feel much better when I eat good food and don't and drink you know basically just water I feel much better in myself when I'm like that they're the they're the main things for me and sleep you know I feel okay definitely better if I'm getting a decent amount of sleep these really practical well they're and they're really achievable I do like you know I don't I don't love not I don't you know I love to eat a hamburger but if you eat bad food all the time yeah you you're not get the nutrition that your brain needs and and if you're not sleeping same thing if you don't get regular exercise yeah um if you're up all night watching even I don't game or anything like that I don't really do social media but if I'm up really late watching a movie or sport on TV I feel terrible in the morning and I'm just doing the tiniest little bit of someone who might just might spend 24 hours watching a game what blue light stimulation and your brain it takes hours and hours and hours for your brain to shut down after that let Al like if you even I I watch TV maybe up until 9:30 or 10: that's not good that's not okay it's not natural I'm sorry it's primally yeah yeah it's not what too smart for no that's it we weren't born to be looking at a bright screen no like really the last Light of the day were meant to see is that of the sun setting and that triggers the Sleep hormones apparently I could search it up but just trust me or the light of a flickering campfire campfire you know Y and then but we don't we stay up way later we're not getting up with the sun and we're not going to bed with the Sun that could be something too it definitely is and you you've got the Cadian Rhythm and I've like I've had I've had serious bouts of depression and I've been on medication for it and then I'll you know I'm like I've got a great um GP and he said to me one like this is going back 15 probably nearly 20 years ago so you've only got one eye like you're getting half the amount of light into your brain I didn't even consider that phys physiologically like if and and I I've never really deeply looked into it but he gave me a couple of really straightforward things to do like don't wear sunglasses in the morning yeah yeah stuff like that and it it definitely changed how I feel like I'm when I figured that out and I don't take medication anymore and I do those really simple things I get as much sunlight into myself as I can um natural lights obviously what as you say it's what we're designed to do um and I love that I love how you threw in the campfire there because that was our original um that's Humanity's original kind of Pub if you like is that we used to sit around and tell stories around the campfire and that was our community and you everyone who's ever who's done it as an adult or even as a child and felt that feeling knows that it's it's one of the most special things you can do and we why are we why are we so connected to it because it's part of our evolutionary makeup as a species that's what we we grew up as a species doing that will will we evolve out of it y it's just that's just what'll happen um but we not evolved out of it yet so you feel you feel it a sense well I do personally feel a sense of calm and true connection when I'm sitting around the campfire with people that's amazing dude it really is listen I'm sorry I just want to cuz I got really curious you know I forget you have one eye okay sorry thank you for that because you've been looking at me for I go skateboarding with you you skate rad you function normally but I I don't know what it's like to be you you know and when you just said that your doctor said that you're you're getting half the amount of sunlight that's very really interesting cuz sunlight is so important to immune function and I I've I've looked a lot into it but the one about Sun uh wearing sorry glasses is interesting I just looked it up so GL obviously I'm not saying don't wear glasses this is what the re research is showing I just found some it says like um when you wear sunglasses your eyes receive less sunlight which can trick your brain to thinking it's darker outside so this causes your pupil pupils to dilate slightly um allowing more light into your eyes and reduce squinting which normally helps limit UV exposure to your skin so what it does is the you get a lower melanin production signal so sunlight triggers the body to produce melanin which is the pigment that helps protect the skin from burning so if you're wearing sungle glasses it's lowering that production signal so your body will produce less melanin therefore it technically will burn Easier by not wearing Sun by wearing sunglasses you are increasing your harm of sunburn your chance of sunburn how interesting so it's like these as humans our bodies are so amazingly designed but then you know we we try to change it but it also goes on to say like you know you should keep wearing sunglasses or just like get your sunlight but limit your exposure is the key like it's saying here like 15 minutes out in direct sunlight have a break another 15 minutes and that's why I'm sure that's my doctor's advice was don't wear them in the morning cuz it's not so it's not so bright not so intense and you'll get that dose you need yeah like sunglasses slow down melanin production leaving your skin slightly more vulnerable there you go far out learn a lot today hey yeah that's that's interesting thanks Sean far out do you want to know what I do to look after myself mentally whatever it is oh yeah yeah thanks for asking no no gra yeah you're running this show you're the worst co-host ever hey well that's bad for your mental health [ __ ] you just put me down man sorry hey Shen yes just while we're you know having this conversation like I know I know you've you've had your demons but you're a you're a a functional guy you've got a lot you've got great relationships I don't know anyone who's been in Newcastle for the amount of time you've been here which is not very long and know as many people as you do oh thanks man but how do you what do you do to look after yourself thanks for asking ah thanks for asking Sean uh from episode whatever you were no honestly okay I do want to relate it because it's a big one firstly I'll start with when I'm going through a really rough patch I've definitely worked out what works for me okay it's having a friend that will listen to my broken record that I can ring up and go and they'll just talk to me we'll stay on the phone for hours and I will probably tell the same story so if I've got an issue that's really you know on my mind they'll listen to me talk through that issue and they'll give ideas and just they'll be there with me for it and I I get emotional to think I've got some friends that have just been there for me for hours and I try to do the same for other but they'll listen to the broken record of me going like let's say it's a breakup ah she did this and she left me and then she took the dog and whatever and okay and then 10 minutes later oh then she left me and she took the dog and she you know wants to take the cat as well you know okay things like that I'll say it over and over hard cardiovascular exercise like uh it just it just works for me like when I really exert myself um running for me it was uh MMA and boxing you know it really helped in terms of like afterwards the feeling I had just would just again the inner demons would be suppressed and I'd feel great and also I got healthier made me want to eat better food because of the heavy exercise okay but as a health teacher we uh reference the five dimensions of health and they are social health emotional health cognitive health physical health and spiritual health and these are recognized by health professionals the World Health Organization so when I feel like I need to re-evaluate my mental health I just go okay am I doing a little bit from each box okay what's my social health like have I been hanging out with friends have I been talking friends have I been picking up the phone whatever emotional health and do I have a confid on I can talk about my feelings great dick cognitive Health am I trying to learn something new am I reading a book am I Googling some [ __ ] up am I learning like how to invest money or like whatever a challenge like go and play youo with a friend or something while you're jogging there you go tick tick tick and then I guess in more recent years the spiritual health Dimension and that means that can be anything but it's just an acknowledgement that you accept that there's something there's another realm out there that's not of this world that's effectively what spiritual health means you know a majority of the world's popul ation has a faith or a spiritual belief of some kind and for me in recent years it has been praying to a higher power of my own understanding and acceptance that there is something else not of this world who is effectively um I guess participating in my life to teach me lessons and guide and direct me and for some reason that gives me like a deep peace and contentment I've never felt before if you want to link it to a religious denomination go ahead do whatever works for you but that's what's working for me right now so there you go yeah and look I'm I've been through um a very straightforward Western religion as a as a young person grew up in a family like that I made my own choices and decisions as an adult my I really like when you rattled off those five I'm like yeah right and you're doing it the way you well I I need to I know I do I know I do I'm much better when I'm like when you say learning stuff if I'm not fix if I'm not finding out new stuff or thinking about things in different ways I get really disappointed with myself because what's the point but it's it's funny it's really interesting spirituality for me has always been connected with something that I didn't really agree with in terms of the dogma of organized Rel religion but in the last probably definitely 10 you know probably 15 years I've I Fe I I recognize myself as a really spiritual person and I don't believe I believe in the connection of this where we are you know everything's connected in terms of we're just atoms it's just electrons it's just okay so we have an any we we we all exist in the same made of the same energy where we're the same energy as that window and that for me is that feel that gives me this it's not just a power it's not just a sense of belonging but this real curiosity about you know the bigger questions of how and why and where you know and I you know at the end of at the end of the day spirituality in whatever form is just a curiosity it's a questioning and a and a sense this is my perception of it a sense of trying to make sense of what and who we are it's like a it's and it can you can think of it in terms of answers because you'll be if you go looking for a a spiritual guide there'll be an infinite number of people who will give you answers but that's just their shti or their their perception of it or whatever but it's just curiosity humans have been trying to work it out right forever they've been trying to answer this one question forever what happens when you die do you know the answer look should I Google it like you know what I mean so I I think in my older years I don't feel old I feel great but I think it's it's like why not now no one really knows so why not believe in something something yeah because for many years I didn't and I criticized and ridiculed um and I I I get very edgy about talking about this because I know it can polarize audiences like that and I'm not here to polarize because I want to make sure that people can still come here in a safe space and hear open-minded thoughtful contests of ideas that's what I see the podcast as it's like it's a contest of ideas I'm just raising this Point yeah I and I'm going to say this [ __ ] it I criticized Christianity my whole life because I had a negative experience with it as a kid my mother deeply Christian woman ridiculed her didn't want to know what I talked to her but then now after watching her do it for 40 plus years I see a woman that has overcome extreme adversity and has Evol evolved into this like beautiful kind lack of bitterness human and I just go I don't know how she did that and it must be that faith that she had and so I criticized the Bible most of my life I still do in a lot of ways and then I thought I've never actually read it and it's the most sold book in the world so I've just given myself a challenge to read the thing from start to finish and January 1st I've actually read it a piece of it every day so at the end of it I can then make maybe speak with some kind of authority and not sound like a complete hypocrite or Fool Am I am I like publicly announcing or identifying as a Christian I don't know but I'm on this I'm on a journey but I do know that when I pray there's a deep contentment and inner peace that I've never felt through any other Pursuit like through sex drugs rock and roll um that time I front side task Le the verw at all dollar during the Vans WAP to a comp that was a good moment but it didn't feel as good as like the peace I feel when I pray so to a god of my own understanding I'll I'm going to stick with that for now and look I I if 15 or 20 definitely 20 20 years ago you and I having this conversation and I would have walked out I wouldn't have walked out because I'm not you know you're a mate and I've got other mes who have all sorts of different fats but I wouldn't have understood what you mean I couldn't have I can't conceive of couldn't have conceived of what that meant but I've when I think about the way I think about spirituality it's the same way everyone well I can't how can I say that it's what I perceive that other people get out of their faith and spirituality and we get we all get something out of it and if you whatever way you do it if you're not as long as it's not as long as you're not harming or impinging someone else's freedom to express theirs go ahead and have that Faith go Ahad ahead and have those beliefs because you we're just here trying to make sense out of this thing and mine's as dumb and Mindless or as brilliant and worthwhile as any ones yeah but the fact that I have it has created this unconditional positive regard for anyone who has Faith because if you need to believe in something if you want to you don't need to but if you do need to that's great if you want to believe in something if you feel like that's adding meaning like you're actually saying and it's like a lot of people do it without thinking what they get out of it they just do it because that's what they've always done fine that's also fine but if you stopped and thought about I actually get a beneficial response from my own faith whether it helps you through a particular the situation or it just gives you that overwhelming feeling of calm like you're talking about how back how can that be bad thing exactly I love that you said that and I think do you feel like you've softened in your in your age yeah I mean I'm not yes yes short short answer is yes the long answer is probably not I I get I'm so passionate like I just I do it in a much more effective way I'm passionate and I'm angry I get so angry at certain things you know the way things get done all but I always try and look at it through that filter of that's just that person doing the thing for whatever reason whether it's money or greed or power or or um revenge or whatever it is people do really really atrocious things they do and so I try and I try and stay away from anything to do with that I don't engage in the news um because I just don't believe I don't trust it I don't believe in it it's not real like it's just so manufactured and manipulative that I just can't go there what I see with m i sure I said this to you when I was sitting in this chair whenever it was last year what I don't see with my own eyes I just can't believe or trust because that's just how it is and you know but I mean that's interesting because when you say what what I can't see or feel with my own eyes and that that's kind of the opposite of Faith because faith is trusting in what you can't see but what you feel that's a good pickup it's I'm talking I'm just talking about things that I like things that I'm told and here through the media yeah and I just don't like that [ __ ] and it and it's like it's so far away from impinging on me like I If if I hear that there's a guy in Bowmont street with a submachine gun I'm not going to go down there like I'm not that stupid just because I can't see that there's someone down there or hear that the gun's going off I'm just going to go okay that's I'm going to Ste clear of that but on the main I it's just about my experience it's what I'm dealing with otherwise it just becomes too you just end up and which is what the media's aim is it's just about fear and control and I don't want to be part of that no and you can that's actually a good point and it's that you can consume the media that you you choose the media you consume yeah you know and in this day and age there's a lot of really good Independent Media it's emerging I love that and that's a byproduct of the internet that no one seem coming and then the governments and everyone's Running Scared and maybe it's created confusion as well but you can choose your sources man you know um but going going back to the whole Faith thing you know I think for me I needed I think I've finally been surrendered and beat down Enough by the world that I've actually finally been open to exploring other avenues and I think people's lack of willingness to change their position out of ego is so detrimental and then they wake up one day and they're 80 years old and they're bitter they're lonely so I think a willing and I think that's sort of where I am and it's just like I've always been driven by a desire to learn and progress and you know I'm just on a journey with it that's all that's all I'm at and I think you know I look at you I see a really I've always from the moment of me I was like kind peaceful soul and I've never heard a bad word spoken about you I'm not saying you're perfect no one is but I'm just saying like you must be doing something right with your soul yeah well you know I like you got your values in the right place I got another I got a you're you're you're that person too you're that person you're 100% that person same thing everyone loves you and you're I know some of it doesn't decade well you're a decade younger than me you know you're more than a decade younger than me so you're it's doesn't feel like it well but you know what I've been around a long time and I'm I try just even even as a even as an like I was having an angry angry Punk but even as a punk who was looked scary and nasty and you know probably did things that I would I don't wouldn't do now as a as an adult it was all you just do try just don't do any harm yeah okay don't hurt people don't impinge on other people's I love that that's a beautiful philosophy well it's if imagine if but I'm just saying dude like I think humans have this amazing way of just twisting things and and change I think that's just the biggest problem like the media is the the best example of that like you don't trust the media because it's just like human nature to control twist the truth change things push an agenda push bias again reading the Bible man like which I criticize and heard other people criticize like all I've really read is messages of like love people turn the other cheek um you know don't don't commit adultery don't cheat what's another one I've been learning about recently um serve others you know this is these are the messages that I've picked up on I haven't heard any messages that say so far anyway that and I'm if you're out there don't start sending me like Bible quotes that are saying that you should go and uh commit hate crimes towards a certain group in our society I I don't want to hear Let me let me work this out for myself but uh so far that's all I'm reading yeah and I mean that can't be bad serving others not committing adultery um turning the other cheek you know don't harm others like this is literally all I've read so far yeah so I know it can't be a bad things but maybe it's a human interpretation that is is the real the real devil and yeah it's well it's let's you know it's greed it's power it's power and greed that's turned all all of that good stuff into something that other PE that people don't value and that's that's a shame um I think on my my funny little really naive un educated look at it is I think everyone's all talking about the same thing and that that's why I feel sad about religion Wars and and and and hatred between groups is that basically everyone's talking about the same thing and you can call it what you want it's you're all talking about the same things just stop arguing about it and agree that your guys called this and our guys called this and you don't have one of all and that's okay too and your way of doing it is sitting on a mountain and all of those things all about the same thing it's just a it's a it's a looking for a meaning and finding it in a way that benefits you and that's what you're talking about and I love that and I wouldn't have got that 20 years ago I wouldn't have understood it for you to say it is so good because I would I would have not agreed I wouldn't have been able to conceive of the idea but I went again talking about Nick Cav in twice in the podcast I listen to Nick Cave's um interview about his the challenges he faced after the death of his son and he in me he's always been a spiritual guy he's all sorts of biblical references in his music but the way he talked about religion and faith and what it did for him and and the goods and the the pros and cons of having it yeah and how it helped didn't get through really got me questioning what did I was I a person of Faith yeah and I am and I always have been and I've believed in things that I that were intangible my whole life like I could read the weather when I was a tiniest little kid mom would say what's it going to do I don't I think it's going to rain it feels like it's going to rain that's a dumb reference but that's how that's the person I've always been since I was a tiny little kid I feel the my environment I'm feel connected to my environment and that's when maybe you're feeling god dude you know well and that's exactly what I'm saying it's your calling it God and that's great well I'm not I'm saying a higher power of my own understanding yeah well and and you and where is my point is we're talking about the same thing I just don't have a name for it and you're sort of saying the same thing but you feel something but I feel something so do I yeah I feel a connection so do I to stuff and it feels great yeah no I I think I I acknowledge that we have those that spiritual feeling because we have a central nervous system and this is going really quickly into psychology we have a central nervous system that's doing stuff that we were we're not even at the tiniest bit aware of all the time every single minute of second of minute of hour of day that we're breathing our central nervous system is taking on information that we've got no clue about which explains a lot about those weird senses and feelings and dja Vu and feelings of connection it's because you are connected because you're you're made of electricity and so is everything around you and I describe it to myself that way and it works for me it's pretty amazing I think a lot I think a lot of humans going back to the nature thing a lot of humans think they're separate to nature but we are we are nature what grows if you die you go into if you're buried in the ground you become the soil you become great compost if you good f for cultivating mushrooms yeah if you uh yeah you're the same stuff it's like it's just science that's just science you're carbon based life form you're you're a carbon based which manifest in the flowering of mushrooms let's not go there you know that good anyway wow man I mean I thought this was going to be a short episode on just giving these strategies but I'm it's evolved into much more but and I like look people listen to your show you I don't know the numbers but people listen to your show and you know a few of those people might have gone oh I know a person like that or I'm that person yeah and seek help or give help yeah what other podcast do you listen to if you don't mind sharing oh look give him a plug I'm just curious yeah I like I said I I I'm not a I don't um engage in much media at all but if I find something if I see something I uh I like the idea of like I said I listened to that nine club with um Olson and salber and it turned into a circus in the end it was a funny circus but it was a circus in the end and how healthy does saba look yeah and he looks so healthy well he's like he's I think exactly my age got full head of hair he's just and he he he's super talking about guys that look after themselves he's been he got on to that early he got the early albums on doing and stretching and good eating and reg and he just skates all the time and Olson is such a brilliant guy he's so well he's but he's so intelligent like you I've had conversations with him where you've just we've just done this just gone off on these crazy tangents but get him on the podcast get him on the podcast you should you you ask Jim's got his if you get him on the podcast then I really will believe in God Jim's got his number you should Jim um Jim got his number yeah I didn't know you heard that story damn Jim turby they prank they prank called him one night and he was like in the studio painting and he just shot the [ __ ] with him for an oh my God would have been like a little kid he was yeah and he said he was very funny but anyway that's so and I listen to audio books occasionally if I find something that I okay so it's just the nine Club yeah that well and it's not even that like I've listened to maybe less than 10 episodes tell if I see something that I yeah I I'm trying to Branch out a bit I I listen to Theo Von a lot he's a comedian he's so funny he cracked me up for some reason but he's gone he's mean he's had some banging guests uh like really thoughtful guests he's trying to advocate for really good um messages he had this woman on there recently who was literally on a war against PornHub right oh man like and she just broke down all the information about that and and what it leads to in terms of societal problems like it was a deep episode man and so he's really like he's out there trying to you know do good things for the world I love that so and the N Club I do I love the nine Club but and I love skateboarding but for me I I can't just talk about skateboarding all the time and and but that's what they do and good on them and I know I can go there for that so thank you nclub but for me I just need to vary it up I'm the same and I I I read I read different I go through phases and I'm I'm currently in a pH when I where I'm actually taking in lots and lots of new information from because I've I need it I need it for my job I'm dealing with different things that I've never dealt with before in ways that I've never had to deal with it before and so I'm trying to take on new ways of of making sense of that for myself and like you don't have to go very far with psychology to real to get a lot of really good like thought provoking stuff about your own behavior because at the end of the day I go to work and I'm working with adults and children and the only person I can control as me yeah so I have to have better strategies of being a better version of me man that's almost a good way to end I think so too but listen before we do end oh well no like thank you no look I want to say a huge thank you for being part of this as the first real conscious episode of you good you good question you're good and I plan on doing these where you know maybe I think the next guest I want to get someone who can talk uh give us some expert advice on nutrition and diet uh maybe some other ones anyone that I think could be just helpful episodes as opposed to interviews all the time the interviews will still be happening but every every few weeks or so I'm going to wedge one of these in and when you've got the opportunity to sit with a legend like Sean gravel burs muset thank you sir oh you're more than welcome I was so honored again to be on the show are you going going to go to the Bondi ball bash I'm man I hope so I'm I'm getting it in my calendar I I'm really when I heard about it which is only really recently I was so excited for it I love that bow it's terrifying but it's the vibe of Bondi so cool Saturday March 22nd get to Bondi for the Bondi ball bash in memory of the legendary Sasha Stein host see youa on [Music]

#GOOD #CheckIn #Weirdo #Shan #Gravel

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